Forgiveness, Fear & Faith: The Truth About Mental Health

Sam Acho: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Sam Acho podcast, a place where we go first. We give space and we grow hope. And this is the first time ever in the history of this podcast where we've had a guest come on a second time, , Ngozi and I got a chance to connect really over the last several years and. As Cliff, my usual cohost and I we're talking about podcast guest.

Sam Acho: We talked about Ngozi and we had a chance to have her on last week, and I was like, no, no, no. We need to keep that conversation going. So before we even get started, , Ngozi, can you just reintroduce yourself to. Our listeners and then we'll begin this conversation.

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Hi friends. So thank you Sam, , for having me back.

Ngozi. A: , It is truly an honor and a privilege just to be able to be here and to just reveal Jesus and glorify God, , in a way that can only be done right, through the power of his word. And so for [00:01:00] folks who are tuning in, and my name is Ngozi Ashibuogwu. I am a licensed professional counselor in Texas and a licensed professional clinical counselor in California.

Ngozi. A: So same license, just different titles. , Originally from Houston, Texas, so if y'all here a y'all in there that is, that Southern it, it likes to disrespect me sometimes, so, and my country accent likes to come out full force and I'm like, wait a minute, tighten it up. So if you hear that y'all come in, that is, , originally from Houston, Texas, but now I reside in Los Angeles, California.

Sam Acho: Hmm. That's so good. Well, thank you so much for sharing. And I, I got a lot of y'alls that come out myself. And so, uh, but I wanted to talk about suicide. Mm-hmm. Mental health and conversations that people maybe don't often have and take away some of the stigma. On this podcast we do, we, we, we go first.

Sam Acho: So we've kind of had this conversation before, but we also give space and I wanna make sure I give this [00:02:00] proper space for the conversation mm-hmm. Uh, that people may need to listen to. And just to do a recap for those who didn't get a chance to listen to, uh. The previous episode, we were talking a lot about our time in Nigeria and the things that we learned and the things that God did and what God does.

Sam Acho: But also we started talking about mental health. Yeah. Specifically in sports. Not even just sports, but people who are in industries where performance is higher. There are these cultural like shame kind of, um, cultures. And also, we talked about like our deep seated beliefs about ourselves and how to bring those to the light.

Sam Acho: This feels a little bit like a heavy conversation just because I'm in the world of sports. For those who don't know, I played nine years in the NFL. I've spent the last four years at ESPN four years collegiate at the University of Texas. So like I've been in the business of sports for about 15, 20 years and I've seen some of the highest highs, people making a lot of money and going to Super Bowls, but also the lowest lows.

Sam Acho: Mm-hmm. There's a Dallas [00:03:00] Cowboys player named Marshan Neland who just recently committed suicide. There was just a, as of two, three days ago as the recording of this podcast, actually yesterday, as this podcast is being recorded, there was a collegiate player at the University of Alabama Birmingham, who the day of the game stabbed his two teammates over a fight at practice just the day before.

Sam Acho: And so I want to just give space Yeah. Ngozi, for this conversation. And my, my first question is. Where does some of the stigma come when it comes to mental health?

Ngozi. A: . You know, one of the things that I've come to learn about it, during my own training, like working with marginalized populations or folks who have a history of just a lot of trauma, , and, , folks who have a very, high demand jobs, is that, mental health has been portrayed in a certain light as folks who are [00:04:00] on these extreme ends of life.

Ngozi. A: Schizophrenia, maybe schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, just all these different things, where there has been a picture that has been painted of mental health being essentially, quote unquote, and I hate to use these words, but crazy or insane, these words, right. Have been blasted and, and so, .

Ngozi. A: Essentially, when you hear mental health and you hear these words, you automatically assume that the person is, a psychotic or, you know, just harmful or, does not have anything in order. Right? And that's not the case when it comes to mental health. Mental health is on a spectrum, right? And so you have your more extreme cases, , and that's due to, , upbringing or maybe just biology,, all those different pieces.

Ngozi. A: But then you have some folks who sit kind of in the middle where we have maybe mild, depressive disorder or maybe some generalized anxiety. And that could be even just situational [00:05:00] because maybe I'm going through a career transition or maybe I'm about to get married, or maybe I've lost a loved one and I'm grieving, so now I'm, I have these depressive like symptoms.

Ngozi. A: So, that's where. The stigma essentially comes from is just this view of what it is, which is totally false and harmful to folks who are struggling.

Sam Acho: Mm. Why is it harmful to folks who are struggling?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. , It's harmful to folks who are struggling because most people don't seek out help. Right. They deal with, the pain, , the thoughts, the experiences,, that they've had.

Ngozi. A: They deal with it alone and in isolation. , And as a someone who operates as a Christian counselor, that's exactly where the enemy wants you to be. He wants you to be isolated, right? That's even how the spirit of depression operates. So if you go back to the book of Genesis, in Genesis chapter one.

Ngozi. A: It says that, , that, , God created the heavens and the earth, right? And as he created the heavens and earth, it said the spirit of the Lord was hovering over the face of the earth. So that when we talk about the spirit [00:06:00] of the Lord, that is the full power of God. That is his presence. And there are more pieces of the Holy Spirit, but that's his power and his presence.

Ngozi. A: That is the, office of the power of God. But if you see that it was hovering over the face of the Earth, and when you go back to the original text and Genesis, and when, I mean original text, I mean before it was translated, it talks about that the earth was void, dark, and it was basically like a dumpster, right?

Ngozi. A: It was, it was just, it was just void list formless. It, it didn't have anything to it. And so if you notice there though, the spirit of the Lord was there, and yet it was still. Dark. It was a dumpster. It wasn't anything that was livable. And it wasn't until God spoke and where he said, let there be light, that now light showed up.

Ngozi. A: Right? Mm-hmm. And so when you think about that is when we have the Holy Spirit within us, it does not have a job until you give it voice, right? So you could be, have the full power of the Holy Spirit operating in you, but it's not until you say, let there be light, that there is light. [00:07:00] And so that's how depression operates.

Ngozi. A: It pulls you back, it keeps you silent, it keeps you isolated. So you could have the full presence of the Holy Spirit and it not have a job because you haven't given it voice. And so even kind of, 'cause I digressed a little bit, but even kind of going back to the question that you asked, Sam, where it said, where you said.

Ngozi. A: You know, like I was just like, well, essentially that's how the enemy operates. He wants to keep you quiet. He wants to keep you silent. He wants you to pull away into the darkness, right? Because that's where he lives. Remember, one of my favorite scriptures, John 10 10, the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

Ngozi. A: But I have come so that you can have life and have it more abundantly. Death, destruction, loss follows going into the darkness. Yeah.

Sam Acho: So, , last time we talked, you said, Hey, I might offend some people, but yeah. I believe that true healing can only come through the word of God.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And

Sam Acho: if I'm getting some of that wrong, please correct me.

Sam Acho: Yeah. But as I'm listening, I'm like, okay, [00:08:00] you are right. But if someone doesn't believe the word of God, how can they heal?

Ngozi. A: That's interesting because. You know, it reminds me of a client I had and , I'll de-identify for the sake of this podcast, but it reminds me of a client I have where the Lord has taught me that no one can sit in the presence of light and not be affected.

Ngozi. A: Especially when you've sat in darkness. And I say that because essentially I tell folks I'm a Christian counselor, do I have all believers come to me? No. Right. They look at the therapeutic modalities I offer. So EMDR, uh, cognitive processing therapy, trauma focused, CBT, like these are all evidence-based approaches.

Ngozi. A: We know that has been proven to help folks, on their journey from PTSD, depression, anxiety. And so I have 'em all in my toolkit that I learned along the way, that I've gotten training for. And so I will have folks who are non-believers come into this [00:09:00] space and say, well, I don't. I don't do all that.

Ngozi. A: And I'm like, okay, cool, bet. No worries. We don't even have to broach that subject. But I'll give you an example of a client I had, and this goes back to what I said, no one can sit in the presence of light and not be impacted. So all my intake forms I typically ask folks, um, like spirituality, religion, like all those things.

Ngozi. A: And I'll have folks say, not applicable, I don't believe. Just whatever they wanna put. That's fine. I I wanna make sure that I don't bro broach that in this space. So I remember I had a client, this was years ago when I was still living, , in Houston. And she'd come. And she had been, , a victim of repeated childhood sexual assault.

Ngozi. A: , Unfortunately until she's an adult now and she's having severe PTSD. It's just a lot the, the severe PTSD with some depressive anxiety features. And so we're sitting and we're in therapy, we're doing, , EMDR and you know, all the things. And then one day she comes in, she calls me Miss, 'cause she couldn't say my name, so she, Hey Miss.[00:10:00]

Ngozi. A: Which, you know, you like client slide, it's not a big deal.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Ngozi. A: And she says, miss, why are you so happy? And she asked me that. And I looked at her and this was after working with her for a while. And I looked at her and I said, do you really wanna know the answer to that? Because I had read the intake and I know what you believe.

Ngozi. A: You already said you don't believe in this. So I asked her, I said, do you really wanna know the answer to that? She said, yeah, I wanna know. Why are you so happy? Because it doesn't make sense, because I work specifically with trauma. And it didn't make sense to her that I could come in and say, good morning, how you doing?

Ngozi. A: You know, . And I told her, and I said, it's because of Jesus Christ. And she said, I don't, I, I don't believe in that. , I don't, I don't believe in God. And one thing we're taught in our training, well, most of us, I, I was taught this to at times, see if you can broach the subject because you don't know what's underneath.

Ngozi. A: Always remain curious. And so I asked, I said, do you mind sharing what makes you not believe or what's to [00:11:00] this story? And she says, I don't mind sharing. I said, well, whenever you're ready to talk. And so what I learned through that was that her mother used God as an excuse to not report the abuse.

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Yeah. So you have this child who had experienced this amount of pain, this amount of trauma repeatedly, right? And then mom, who was supposed to be my protector, used religion as the excuse as to why I never reported it. And she could not understand how a loving God would let her mom not report this.

Ngozi. A: And so that's what I was able to discover during that conversation. And I thanked her for sharing. I thank her for her courage. And I said, do you wanna continue talking about that or do you wanna move to a different subject? She said, [00:12:00] let's move to a different subject. So we moved to a different subject, but like I said, going back to what I started with, no one can sit in the presence of light and not be impacted.

Ngozi. A: Oh, some weeks pass. And she comes and she says, miss. I wanna know about this God in the session. And I'm like, you sure? She's like, yeah, I wanna know about this God. And I said, well, I don't really wanna use your session for that. You know, like, I wanna be mindful of that, but can I give you something if that works for you?

Ngozi. A: So I keep Bibles and I was like, I'll give it to you if you want it. And she was like, yeah, I'll take it. And so this was, so she took the Bible. We never talked about it again, never said a word about it again. Months passed. And this is a client who was very flat in her affect when she would come in because she had had to learn to numb herself to the pain.

Ngozi. A: So this day though, in particular, when she comes in like, this is over some period of time. So this day she comes in and she's like, man, she won't believe it. And I'm like, what? And she's like, there is this like [00:13:00] happiness, there is this like, empowerment to her, something that I've never seen before because of, of having to numb out the pain.

Ngozi. A: And she says to me, she says, miss, I told my mom that she was supposed to report it because that's not what God wanted. That they had had this long conversation, rather argument about how God wanted mom to step in and she didn't do it. So what that told me was that she had been working on the backend with her faith, and it was there that our turning point came in her journey.

Ngozi. A: So I know that there are folks who would say, oh no, I've been healed without the word. I've been healed. And, and the question I asked you, have you been healed or have you been given a bandaid? Has the wound actually been dealt with? Or have we been able to rationalize the behavior, the thoughts? Mm-hmm.

Ngozi. A: Right? Do we find ourselves still isolating or moving away from [00:14:00] certain spaces when we're triggered by the pain? This person just doesn't, you know, like you hear a lot of those things, like, this person doesn't serve me anymore. But that's not the mindset in the kingdom, because in the kingdom it's unity.

Ngozi. A: So these are the questions that I ask folks like, really? Have you healed without it? No. Because when you're walking with the Lord, oh, he deals with all of that.

Sam Acho: Why does God deal with all of that?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Because he wants you to be a reflection of Jesus, who is love and you can't love from a broken place.

Ngozi. A: Right? Can you really love from a broken, you can't love from a broken place because love is, and not just love, like lustful love or friendship love. We're talking about agape love. We're talking about unconditional love. This is, it's actually interesting that this is coming up because I'm still kind of working my way through this, but the Lord had led me to us about a week and a half ago to [00:15:00] study Jonah.

Ngozi. A: Right, because Jonah has gotten a rap of, you know, not wanting to do the Lord's will because he didn't wanna go to Nineveh and all the things. But when you really look at Jonah's history, Jonah was a traumatized prophet because Nineveh was the capital of, the searing people. And if you know anything about the searing people, they were essentially, they were people who would skin folks alive.

Ngozi. A: They would impale them alive. They would write about these things. They would take people captive, right? All the people that they conquered, they would take them captive and then, send them to these displaced land and then put other people in their land. So when Jonah, Jonah doesn't even have a conversation with the Lord, Lord says, I want you to go to Nineveh.

Ngozi. A: Jonah says that right. I'm about to get on a boat and go somewhere. Like he didn't even have a conversation with the Lord. So Jonah was a traumatized prophet. And so I think when we start seeing Jonah like a [00:16:00] traumatized prophet, like you are asking me to go speak to people who have been harmful to not only my people, but to me who have written about this and their stories, who celebrate this.

Ngozi. A: You are asking me to walk in the danger. You're asking me to confront people that I haven't even forgiven yet, I can't even love. And so Jonah, we know this and, and for those who don't know the story of Jonah, please go read the story of Jonah. But it ends with Jonah just being still this angry person. I said, well, Lord, this, it can't end this way because I recognize that Jonah is still, you know, unforgiving in this nature, but you're not a unforgiving God.

Ngozi. A: You're a merciful God, right? So where's the end of this? And as I was reading this and just kind of praying and meditating, the Lord took me to Ananias. in Acts chapter nine.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ngozi. A: Because if we look at that, Anais is the disciple who prayed over Apostle Saul, who later became Paul, but he prayed over him.

Ngozi. A: So you [00:17:00] remember before, Paul became Saul? Well, before Saul became Paul, he was the one terrorizing the folks they called the Way, which is now Christians. Right. And he was terrorizing them. He had permission to take them to jail, just all these type of things. So his name had spread. He was there where they threw down, clothing as they martyred Steven.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Ngozi. A: Right. So you are ask, so Paul is essentially, he has this encounter with God on the way to Damascus, and then he's waiting and he's praying to the Lord. The Lord comes to Ananias and says, I want you to go to a man named Saul of Tarsus. Ananias says, I can't do that. This man has been a terror to our people.

Ngozi. A: That's how I read the word. He has been outta terror. And the Lord says, no, he's my chosen instrument. And so right there we see Ananias who had the [00:18:00] opportunity to be like Jonah, but he decided to. Look, fear in the face, right? Because unforgiveness isn't rooted in anger, it's rooted in fear and harm that has been done to a person.

Ngozi. A: And Ananias, he goes to Damascus and he prays first Saul, for him to be able to see. And so I can't remember where I was going with this story, but essentially , what I, wanted to highlight in this is that God wants you whole so that you can be a reflection of Jesus Christ. And that at times looks like praying for those who have caused you the most harm, doing something that is counter to the world.

Ngozi. A: Because in the kingdom of God, love is principle. It says faith, hope, love, but above all else love.

Sam Acho: That's so good. I gotta unpack or I'd like if you would, if you may. Yeah. If you unpack one thing that you said, you said [00:19:00] that forgiveness isn't rooted in anger, it's rooted out of fear. That kind of like went over my head and I tried to catch it and was like, bring it back down.

Sam Acho: Uh, what do you mean when you say that unforgiveness is rooted in fear? Fear of what ,

Ngozi. A: lemme say this, anger can be a, , parallel emotion, right? Like it can, anger can come with unforgiveness. Unforgiveness isn't an emotion to begin with. , So I have to say that, right? 'Cause you don't ever feel like forgiving the person who is causing you pain. Like that doesn't happen. You're not gonna feel that. And so what I mean by unforgiveness is, is rooted in fear, is that. Unforgiveness shows up when someone has done the most harm to us, betrayed us, rejected us, right?

Ngozi. A: Offended us in ways that have, , essentially, , have been like a moral injury or spiritual injury, right? Emotional injury, psychological injury. That's when unforgiveness shows up. If [00:20:00] it's like someone, , missing a text me on my birthday who, you know, I've met maybe like once, you know what I mean?

Ngozi. A: Like, I'm not pressed, right? It's when those deeper wounds come. And so it's rooted in fear because fear comes from a survival mentality like. I'm afraid to be able to love you again because you have caused me this much harm. I'm afraid to be open again. Mm-hmm. I'm afraid to be transparent, to be authentic, to be vulnerable with you.

Ngozi. A: And so because of that, there's unforgiveness that shows up.

Sam Acho: Mm-hmm. It's like a protection mechanism. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay. . So as I'm learning and listening, I want to ask a question based off of our history. So a little bit of background. We, we went to Nigeria. Yeah. And we spent some time there.

Sam Acho: And, um, as we were leaving, we were in the airport, we were leaving, we were just kind of chatting and you were sharing a [00:21:00] little bit about some of your testimony.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: And I know the Bible says that we shall overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. And I know I haven't, prepped you with this or anything like that, but,

Sam Acho: part of your testimony, would you, would you be willing to share some of your testimony on this podcast?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What part would we, yeah, what part do we share?

Sam Acho: Yeah. Well, I, I just think maybe of like, the woman asked when she said, miss, miss, where do you get that joy from? Like, how are you? So I, the times I've been around you, there is a deep sense of joy.

Sam Acho: There was a time we were in Nigeria doing our medical mission work, and it was like we were all together, we were all playing a game at the very end. We were like having fun playing mafia. If you haven't played mafia, y'all need to go play Mafia. It's one of the best games ever. And we were playing mafia and it was just having a great time.

Sam Acho: We had just spent time on the mission field and many of the doctors and, and um, volunteers had come back. There were still a group that was still working and we were playing, having fun. And you were like, life of the party was awesome. It was great. And then a few moments later as we're playing this game, [00:22:00] one of the surgeons came back.

Sam Acho: Yeah. And her team, Dr. Fatman, her team came back and. I was in the middle of Narrating Mafia, so I'm like, oh. They came back and some of the team had noticed that they looked a little bit disheveled or distressed or something and we had asked them, Hey, you know, what's going on? And, and they were kind of like, ah.

Sam Acho: And I was like, oh, that's probably a long day. But come to find out, there was actually something more that happened. Yeah. Um, just to share some of the story with some of our listeners, they were getting ready to. We, you know, we, we go for, you know, two weeks or so, five, 10 days and do medical mission work.

Sam Acho: And there's a hospital that my mom and dad built in Nigeria and we were at the hospital. And so we had left and everything was pretty much getting shut down. And I guess right as that team was getting ready to finish up and leave, someone had coming on a motorcycle and been in this bad accident, all this stuff was going on.

Sam Acho: And so, like by God's grace, that team was still there to be able to help. Mm-hmm. But they had to go and , send that individual after they helped as much as they could to a different location. [00:23:00] And so they came back with all that heaviness and that weight saying, man, we haven't seen something like, that before.

Sam Acho: And we're hoping and praying that that man will be okay. Yeah. Right. So, so that's how they entered. And it was like this shift happened because I'm sitting there like, okay, do we play? Yeah. Do we pray? Do we like, what do we do? Yeah. And you amongst a few others. Kind of stopped the whole game and said, no, let's pray.

Sam Acho: And not only did we pray, we began to sing and worship God for, I don't know, 30, 40 minutes, an hour. I don't even know how long. So it turned into a worship, worship session and that took me off guard and caught me off guard because I'm like, man, there's something about this woman where she doesn't even care about what anybody else thinks.

Sam Acho: Like she's serving a master where she's like, I know my God is able [00:24:00] to heal. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna go to him and we're all gonna go to him.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Sam Acho: On behalf of this individual who we haven't met, who we don't know. And that, that took me aback and it caught me off guard. I haven't got a chance to ask you about that.

Sam Acho: And also. Just about you. Like where is that from?

Ngozi. A: Hmm. Ooh, where do I even begin with that? It's so interesting because I was reflecting this morning and I was thinking, when did you start singing praise songs to the Lord? And I, and it had to have been when I was like eight years old, if y'all don't know, on TV n there was this thing called Kobe's Clubhouse.

Ngozi. A: And they would do like worship songs and talk about things. And I remember being eight and nine and seven and just singing those things. But then life happens. And so what I will say, to that is this comes from. Early on in, so a little bit background for folks who don't know, I worked in TV for a little bit.

Ngozi. A: I thought I wanted to, , work in television and I did right. I that I, I went to a [00:25:00] magnet program for it, , in high school. , I went to, I moved to California once before already where I lived in Orange County. , Because I wanted to work in broadcast news. I had the opportunity to do that when I moved back to Houston, worked in broadcast news.

Ngozi. A: And it was in that season, , when I moved back and I was in broadcast news where I really started to do my walk with the Lord, like study the word like, I was under a teaching , ministry, which I still listen to today, even though I'm not in Houston under a teaching ministry. , And just all the things with that.

Ngozi. A: And it was in this journey that I, as I'm walking with the Lord, that, you know, I, I, I saw brokenness in a way that I had never known it before. And this was just. By reporting news, right? There are things that you report. Hmm. And there are things that you, you know what I mean? Like don't report, but it's still heartbreaking in itself.

Ngozi. A: Hmm. And I remember asking Lord, like, there has to be more to this. Like this cannot be it. Because there I have had you and I [00:26:00] know what it looks like to be in love with you, in love with your word, in love, with teachings, in love with worship and all these different things. And so it was in that journey where the Lord now is like, all right, I want you to go be a therapist.

Ngozi. A: And at the time, that's why your dad enthralled me so much because I didn't have any concept of. Therapy being a profession like that was not an idea for me. You know, like with Nigerians, it's lawyer, doctor, nurse, engineer, pharmacist. Yeah. That's all it is. Yeah. And I was already an anomaly by wanting to work in tv 'cause my folks wanted me to be an attorney, right.

Ngozi. A: They were like, you speak well, blah, you going to law school? And so I was already kind of doing my own thing, you know? And so I was like, counselor, what's that? You know? And so I started to even have to look into that. Even though I had like counselors around me, my, like, one of my mentors is my high school counselor.

Ngozi. A: Like, we still keep in contact till today she wrote my recommendation letter. So it's like, it didn't, it wasn't a concept. And so. [00:27:00] Fast forward, moved to, uh, Baltimore, Maryland. Baltimore, like my Baltimore, Baltimore. I love it. They say two, two.

Speaker 3: Baltimore.

Ngozi. A: Man. I remember when somebody was talking to me and they said, Doug, and I said, what's a Doug?

Ngozi. A: I was like, I was so confused, and they meant dog. And I was like, like, yeah. I was like, but that, I love it. I love, I love

Sam Acho: it. Love it. I love it too,

Ngozi. A: man. It has so much like, uh, just beauty in it. And so Baltimore was a beautiful experience living out there. And it was there that I was exposed to a brokenness that even more so, that I had never seen while being in news.

Ngozi. A: And if any of you all are familiar and, and they're doing, I mean, the mayor is doing an amazing job with Baltimore now, so shout out to him. But when I got there, that was not the case. Right? It was still this like broken hardness, , and sadness you could feel over the city. And even that has something to it because there are spirits that governed cities too, but we we're not gonna call that.

Speaker 4: Okay, next episode three, part three. Part three, ,

Ngozi. A: and I remember just like, man, [00:28:00] this is wild. And ,, so I got , introduced in a domestic violence, sexual violence theory early on. That was where my clinical work started as an intern. And I remember doing this work, and I remember the spirit of the Lord said to me, actually, let me rewind a little bit.

Ngozi. A: It was my first year there, and I remember, , I had just got off of competing for Miss Maryland. Normally when I'm like in competition mode, nothing like really matters. And so nothing was mattering, I was in competition mode, didn't win, you know, page's over. So now I had like all this free time because I don't have anything to distract me.

Ngozi. A: And so I felt like I was being exposed to things that I wasn't seeing before. And I felt like I was unraveling, like I felt like I was literally unraveling. I felt like I was being peeled like a onion and I could not explain it. I just had this sadness where I was like, this is unnatural for me. 'cause I normally sit in a, like a joyful type of spirit.

Ngozi. A: I'm normally able to see the bright side in things and I couldn't explain this. And I remember I was driving on a 95 going back to my place after working. [00:29:00] And there was this woman on the radio Shine 95 fm, and I was listening to it, kind of just like here and there, listening to it. And she says one question that kind of changed everything, where she says, how intentional are you being with your relationship with God?

Ngozi. A: And that stayed with me because the way in which I was doing my walk with God was not going to suffice in the season that I was in, especially because when God takes you to deeper levels. And so it was there that I had to make up in my mind that I was going to pursue God above all else, right? I wasn't going to do my quiet time, maybe 30 minutes, or if I didn't, it wasn't gonna work anymore.

Ngozi. A: And so that was the shift for me in that season. And then when now God introduced me to working with DV and sexual violence in my clinical internship, the Lord ministered to me said, if you're gonna stay in this business, you are gonna have to put me first. You don't, you don't have a choice 'cause you're gonna be sitting with spirits.[00:30:00]

Ngozi. A: You're gonna be sitting with pain. You are going be sitting with things that you have never dealt with before and you won't be able to do this work absent of me. And so it was there that I made up in my mind that no matter what I was going to pursue the Lord. And that has allowed me to remain in this kind of state of joyfulness for the most part.

Ngozi. A: Right. There's something that you said, we went on our medical, the medical missions trip and we were playing mafia and then the mood shifted, to this realm, right? Where , because there was someone who was in this horrific accident and we just shifted and we started praying and we started worshiping.

Ngozi. A: , Here's the beautiful thing about it, is that when you want God to arise from the throne, you don't just pray, you worship as well, because then it says, when Paul and Silas prayed in worship, it wasn't just enough for an angel to come unlock their chains.

Ngozi. A: God had to get off the throne and shake the foundations of the earth. And so having this understanding, [00:31:00] this revelation by the word, I understood that if we wanted God to intervene in the way that only he could 'cause remember going back to our first podcast. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, here in the US we can call 9 1 1 out there.

Ngozi. A: It's all your faith. That's all you got. If I, I knew that in order to intervene the way that we needed God to intervene or we were gonna have to pray and worship just like Paul and Silas.

Sam Acho: How did you know it would work?

Ngozi. A: You know, faith is man, faith is a journey with the Lord. And I have seen the hand of the Lord work miracles in my life.

Ngozi. A: I'll give you one example. I remember. So I graduated from Chapman University in Orange County. We back to Houston and I was trying to break in the news and anyone who is familiar with television knows that it's markets, right? And so typically they tell you you have to work in a smaller market and work your way up.

Ngozi. A: I say, [00:32:00] I'm not going nowhere. I'm staying in Houston. I'm from Houston, I'm back in Houston. I'm not going anywhere. If, you know, Houston at the time was, I think they were number 10. So you didn't just start in a number 10 market. , Like you don't do that, right? And I said, well, I'm not going anywhere.

Ngozi. A: I remember I had been, I knew folks who worked at, some of the local stations 'cause I interned at one of them. So I knew folks who worked at different places. , And for me it was like they would say, oh, we're gonna gimme a resume X, Y, and Z. And then I would never hear anything. Yeah. Never hear anything, never hear anything.

Ngozi. A: And I remember just being like, okay, like I'm tired. I don't wanna do this anymore. Let me, maybe if I just move back to LA right then I could, I have a better chance. Because LA is what, number two at the time. It's a bigger market. You can start off. It's like all the other things. So that's what my brain was thinking.

Ngozi. A: And I remember I was talking to my younger sister and she was like, I saw a posting and she said, well, if they already have your, resume on value, you might as well just hit apply. 'cause [00:33:00] you, it's not like you're putting in anything. And so I was like, yeah, that's true. I'll just apply and we'll see what happens.

Ngozi. A: So I applied and I got a phone call like a week and a half later. And then I got the interview and then maybe about an hour and 30 minutes after the interview. 'cause I remember Steve Harvey was on at the time after my, so that's how I knew, like it was really quick because it was a morning interview and at the time they showed him like at 11 o'clock in the morning.

Ngozi. A: And so he was on and I was kind of on my, laptop. 'cause I did freelance work at the time. Mm. And I remember they offered me the job and I accepted it. And I remember thinking to myself like, Lord, I applied to this place. 'cause I had applied to that place, that particular place three times already. And they had denied it within six months.

Ngozi. A: I'd already applied three times. Three times. And I knew people who worked there already. 'cause I interned there too. And so I remember thinking like, just being confused and being like, Lord, what was all of this about? And he said [00:34:00] to me like, it was just a soft whisper. And , it was one of the.

Ngozi. A: First times that I started to really understand the voice of God, because at the time I'm learning it, he says to me in a soft whisper and he says, I needed you to know that you could only depend on me in this season and that it starts with me. And so it was from then that the Lord had kind of just built this like radical faith in me, right?

Ngozi. A: Where even me living in Los Angeles is a faith move. 'cause I didn't have any, I didn't have any desire to move to la. I was settled in Houston. And there's a backstory to that. And the Lord was like, i want you move to la and I was like, you sure? Because, honestly speaking, Sam, I had said, when I left California the first time, I said, I'm not moving back.

Ngozi. A: I'd made the, I had made an internal decision that I wasn't moving back. And . When I heard that, I said, okay, I need to get prayer partners with this. 'cause, I think my line is off with the Lord and I'm not hearing, I'm not hearing clearly, [00:35:00] but to say, but essentially the Lord has trained me on these different like faith moves where it's like he's not gonna actually do a big thing first, because number one, you don't even know how to hear the voice of the Lord.

Ngozi. A: So he's gonna train you to hear him so that you can build your confidence in him because you can only depend on the God that you have encountered is what it boils down to. So if I've only encountered God as my healer, then I'm looking for provision. My confidence won't be there because I've only encountered him as healer.

Ngozi. A: I only know him as healer, so I don't, so I don't even know where to begin with provision. So God will train you in that. And even that, that's understanding how to hear the voice of the Lord. And I can take us down a area, but you know, I wanna be mindful.

Sam Acho: Yeah. Wow. That's good. Can we go down the air just a little bit?

Sam Acho: We, we, we can take, can we?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I teach folks, this is what it boils down to. So I'll give you an example. If I'm someone who speaks Spanish and I say, I [00:36:00] heard from the voice of the Lord, then I'm someone who speaks English and I say, I heard from the Lord, and I'm someone who speaks French, and I heard from the Lord, what?

Ngozi. A: Well, what language does the Lord speak? Because he's not a God of confusion. Does he speak French? Does he speak Spanish? Does he speak English? None of them. The Lord speaks in light. His word is light. So he speaks in light. That is his language. So. Understanding that it starts with the word of God and having this like inside of you, reading the word, stewarding yourself over the word, you're able to learn the language of God.

Ngozi. A: And the more you know the word of the Lord, the more he can speak. There's more dynamics added to this understanding. I'll give you an example. So if God is speaking in light and I go like this, one person may interpret that, oh, you said come forward, another person may interpret that, as you said, move two different meanings, come forward, move.

Ngozi. A: Right? [00:37:00] But it's the vastness of understanding the word, sitting in the word, letting the word like permeate you, that God has now room to speak to you through his word because he speaks in light.

Sam Acho: So it sounds like the more time I spend. God's word and not just like, okay, I read my verse of the day, but like studying his word, or maybe even just reading it over and over again and maybe meditating on his word.

Sam Acho: Mm-hmm. Or just trying to memorize scripture. It sounds like the more that I do that, the better I'll be able to hear from the Lord. Am I hearing that correctly?

Ngozi. A: You are hearing that correctly. Okay. You will be able to hear the Lord, and this is important, especially because when we get into the area of times and seasons, there's always a season of abundance and always a season of scarcity.

Ngozi. A: Joseph taught us that, and so you don't know what to do in these seasons unless you know the voice of the Lord or if there is a move happening and the Lord wants to [00:38:00] show you the vision for the next 10 years, you don't know how to do that unless you know the voice of the Lord. So the more you sit and you sink in his word, he has room to be able to speak to you because you have the the comprehension, you have the vocabulary bank, right, and it brings clarity.

Ngozi. A: Right, because there is, you know, like if you're going to a place that you've never been to before, you have to slow down, right?

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But

Ngozi. A: if you know where to get, how to get there, you're not slowing down. You're just like, you're there. Mm-hmm. That's how the voice of the Lord works.

Ngozi. A: He's gonna download everything, but you have to have the vocabulary for it, or you might have to find yourself slowing down.

Sam Acho: Okay? So what I'm hearing is, hey, unclutter everything and take this time with me, and period. Like, that's all, it's not really that complicated. It's

Ngozi. A: not that complicated

Sam Acho: at

Ngozi. A: all. So

Sam Acho: like, oh, I gotta make all this time and I gotta, it's like, actually no, there is time.

Sam Acho: Mm-hmm. Just prioritize [00:39:00] me is what God is saying.

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Prioritize. I think that's the key word. Prioritize. Often people say that there isn't enough time, and I'm rushing off here, but you know, if you got time to scroll on your phone, you guys have to sit with the Lord, right? And remembering that these social media accounts, and I'm not hate to social media because I got social media, right?

Ngozi. A: But these social media accounts are created to keep you engaged. That's why you're able to scroll so much. It's, it's created like the back end of it is literally to keep you there. That's why even when you talk to your chat, GPT or whatever you're doing, like it's there to keep you at the forefront. It doesn't, wanna lose its audience.

Sam Acho: Why are you saying that? What? Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Ngozi. A: Because one of the things that I've come, you know, I went to a conference, um, I wanna say back in Octo this past October, I went to a conference and one of the things that, um, came up in that conference was that. The most things that people inquire of is mental health concerns and counseling [00:40:00] needs on chat.

Ngozi. A: GPT, they're asking it. And so what we know about, um, these ais is that they have ways of doing what we call hallucinations. And so hallucination is basically like giving you wrong information because it's like, kind of like when you think about it, it's whatever you put in, that's where you're gonna get out.

Ngozi. A: So if I put garbage in, that's what's gonna come out because it's only regurgitating what's been put in. Right? And we're talking about been put in from the masses. Right. And so what happens is, this is why you can put something in and you may get a harmful stereotype about a particular group or about a place or whatever it may be, but that's because of what someone has put in.

Ngozi. A: So it's spitting that out, right. That, so keep that in mind. And so I I bringing that back to counseling, when folks are asking their GPT or their call, whatever it is, when they're asking these questions about like mental health, like it's keeping you engaged, but it can still have hallucinations. Mm-hmm.

Ngozi. A: And so a hallucination, what [00:41:00] we've seen, I think it recently we've seen lawsuits against these, companies, right? Where, teenagers have asked for advice in regards to suicidality. And so a hallucination happens. And remember, it's to keep you engaged. So it's reaffirming something that we would deem in our counseling world as harmful.

Ngozi. A: Did that make sense?

Sam Acho: Yeah, it made a lot of sense. It made a lot of sense., One more on that because we asked, the reason I asked this question. Well, okay. Lemme ask the question first. , What. Do we do what? And maybe someone as a, as a Christian, a follower of Jesus, how do I, what do I do to combat that or to be aware of it?

Sam Acho: Like what should my response be? Knowing that, whether it's chat, GPT, ai, any type of ai, perplexity, all these apps, knowing that that's out there, should I be afraid? Should I be excited? Like, how do I respond?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. I don't think you need to be afraid of these items. I just think you need to be aware, right?

Ngozi. A: Awareness is the key. Having knowledge is the key about like this thing could hallucinate. [00:42:00] Mm-hmm. This thing could tell me something wrong. , If I am someone who is seeking mental health advice, turning to folks who are in the field, that's not an ai, where you have someone who is in the space who can hold the fruit of the spirit and not like chat GPT, that can't hold the fruit of the spirit, right?

Ngozi. A: 'cause it's still an ai.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Right.

Ngozi. A: And recognizing to turn to folks like that. But if I'm someone who. But if I'm on the other end, right, and I'm looking for signs with someone, I'm looking for things that if they're withdrawing, not doing things that they used to love, maybe shutting down a little bit more, maybe giving more excuses about not coming around.

Ngozi. A: I'm looking for someone whose disposition is different from what I'm used to. I'm looking for someone who may talk like I'm a burden. If I just go away, no one would notice anyway, right? I'm looking for those subtle changes in the person , that's in front of me. Mm-hmm. And so this is where I encourage folks that when you start to see those subtle changes, that you engage them even [00:43:00] more,

Speaker 4: right?

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Ngozi. A: , I'm the queen of voice notes. You'll probably never get a text message, but you'll get a voice note like, and it'll be like a 20, 30 minute voice note, like it's a long voice note, but I even say give a voice note. Sometimes it's more comforting to hear someone's voice on the other end. So those are just some little chip tips and tricks through it.

Sam Acho: That's so good. Yeah, I remember one of my friends, you talked about the change of disposition. One of my friends, one of my best friends, still probably my best, you know, guy friend to this day. His, this was seven or so years ago, and his, wife had just got diagnosed with terminal cancer. And, , he was sharing that with me.

Sam Acho: And as he was sharing that with me, I was sharing with him just some of the, frustration and struggles that I was going through of trying to grow from what I would say like a boy to a man. The actions I was doing was very childish. Actions. The thought processes and the beliefs I had about myself and others was very, you know, it didn't come out as a good thought process.

Sam Acho: It came out as a dude, come on, you're better than this. And I was sharing with him [00:44:00] like, man, it all looks great on the outside, but dude on the inside, I am not Okay. He recommended I go talk to a therapist and he had just come, just come from talking to someone and that's why he was sharing with me.

Sam Acho: Mm-hmm. And he said, I just, I recommend, and I did. And I thought that this would just be a, you know, one or two meetings. Lemme boom, check the boss. I'm in, I'm out. Hey, I did it. And I remember meeting with the guy and he is like, Hey, this is probably gonna take like a year to a year and a half. Hmm. And my first response was, man, I don't have that kind of time.

Sam Acho: But then my second response was, oh, but this is a priority if I want to be healthy and whole. Mm-hmm. This is a priority. Last time we talked, because you said, well everyone needs counseling. Mm-hmm. Everyone needs therapy. And initially I'd have been like, nah, you know, that's not true. And after spending a year and a half plus, , even after that year and a half, I remember moving and still trying to call this guy and going on Zoom.

Sam Acho: Like, I can agree that everyone needs therapy. And, and I remember the reason I asked about [00:45:00] earlier about the, unforgiveness being more fear-based or anger based. Because I remember when I first talked to this, this therapist, , I walked in and I kind of, you know, feel like I got it all. I, I could, I could put on a front and I got all together.

Sam Acho: I could show like I have it all together. And I remember walking in and the guy asked me, he said, no, we're talking, doing the thing. And he says, Hey Sam, I have a question for you. I said, yeah, go ahead. He said, what do you do when you get angry? I said, oh, I just try not to get angry and you're laughing 'cause I think you know where this is going.

Sam Acho: , And I, and he looks at me again. He is like, no, I totally get that. But you know, what do you do when you get angry? Mm-hmm. I said, yeah, I heard what you said. I just, I just try not to get angry.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: And he looks at me again, kinda like, you're looking at me now. And he says, Sam, everybody gets angry. So what do you do when you get angry?

Sam Acho: And I, I just started to weep. I started to weep and I didn't, I [00:46:00] felt two or three things, I felt trapped because this guy's asking me questions and there's nowhere to go, nowhere to escape. I felt seen because this guy wasn't gonna let my facade just, um, just, um, stay there.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: And those were really the two main feelings a little bit later on, and I'll explain why, but later on I felt like God was doing open heart surgery on me as we were talking, because as, as he began to speak and I began to weep, it wasn't just like the little tears.

Sam Acho: I was like, hyperventilating. You know, like,

Speaker 4: yeah. You know?

Sam Acho: Yeah. And he kind of brings his, you know, chair a little bit closer, kind of stands up and he says, Hey, Sam, I need you to breathe. And I'm, you know, and he says, Sam, I need you to breathe. I still, you know, you. Hyperventilating. I don't know a better word to say it.

Sam Acho: He says, Hey Sam, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put my hand on your, on your chest. I need you to breathe. [00:47:00] So I'm like, then he says, Hey Sam, I'm gonna put my hand on your stomach. I need you to breathe.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Sam Acho: And I didn't get why he did that, but something about that

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Sam Acho: Helped.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: I need you to breathe. Huh? And then he looks at me and I'll say this, 'cause this happened funny before this conversation, like a week before when I'm sitting with my friend, like my friend said the same thing, but this counselor is, he sees me in my tears and what I felt was shame and ugliness.

Sam Acho: He looks at me and he says, it's nice to see you, Sam. And he said, oh, by the way, get used to hearing that. What I failed to mention is that a week before I went to this. Therapist. I was sitting with my friend when I was, he was sharing with me about his wife who was now gone to be with the Lord, his, his wife, who was now with the, and I was sharing with him about all my fear and shame and doubt and all the, like, this, you named the sin.

Sam Acho: I was telling him all this stuff. [00:48:00] And as I'm sharing with him, I was crying with my friend at this restaurant. I had a Gibson Steakhouse in Chicago. Yeah, right. Nice steakhouse. I'm crying, crying, crying. And I feel like I felt ugly, if you will. Mm-hmm. And I felt, you know, tears, everything. And I'm crying, crying.

Sam Acho: And my friend looked at me before this counselor, anything. He said, Hey, Sam. And I kind of like wipe a tear and look up and he says, it's really nice to see you. He said, he said before he told me to go, he made me wanna consider a therapist. He said, Hey, it's good to see you, the real you. And he said, Hey, and maybe God is writing a book in your life, and you may only be on chapter two.

Sam Acho: Mind you, what I just shared felt like, I mean. Pages and pages And pages. Yeah. It was like from, you know, I lost a mentor, you know, like I was dealing with some doubt and frustration and shame and, he shared that with me. He, he said, Hey, if you want to therapy, I decided to go and like every single week, [00:49:00] we, mind you, I just signed, this is why I do what I do now.

Sam Acho: I just signed a, like the dream contract that you hope for in the NFL, right? I just achieved what I thought was going to be, , success or made me happy. Whatever you want. I thought I did the thing. Yeah. And I did the thing, and I felt worse. I felt worse. I'm like, I thought this was gonna help me, and I feel like I'm, I'm just enabled to do even more evil and feel even less.

Sam Acho: And so every week we, you know, training camp and football, you have usually you practice for six days and you have one off day. And our training camp was about a two hour drive from Chicago. It was a place called Bourbon, a Illinois. And every off day I'd go back home and see my wife and my kids and I would see them that I'd go and spend an hour with that therapist every week.

Sam Acho: And funny enough, a few weeks later into that season, I remember getting injured, being out for the year. And every off day before and after injury, I'd go and I'd sit with this man. And when I say that it felt like God was doing open heart surgery, [00:50:00] he wasn't letting me run from myself.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: He wasn't letting me run from myself.

Sam Acho: And so, I could just, if I, there's benefit and joy and good solid Christian counseling, not just any kind. I would, I would say good, solid Christian counseling because I think other, other. Types, you know, you go to the stuff online and stuff. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm not, I'm not an expert in it, but I do believe that there's power in the name of Jesus and in the word of God.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Sam Acho: Right. , And that like, healing is available. And I do believe that everything physical is spiritual. There's a spiritual component and element. And I think if we continue to neglect that element, then we are neglecting ourselves.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: I've been on a journey and we were sharing before I hit record about man, I feel like God is calling me to, it's not bigger or better or greater or [00:51:00] more, I think he's calling me the whole to wholeness.

Sam Acho: To, yeah. To, Hey. I know you feel broken. Or you've been broken. I know it doesn't feel like it's all the way you think, but it's 'cause I've been preparing you. Are you willing to like put all your chips. With me and not everybody will know, but he knows if you're leaving, I lemme just give this little

Speaker 3: piece,

Sam Acho: I'll give you like 98%.

Sam Acho: But he is like, no, that unforgiveness, that 2% of unforgiveness, will you give that to me?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Sam Acho: That 2% of selfishness of fear when you give that to me. And so I share that. I don't know why I shared that, but I do. I'm sharing that. Yeah.

Ngozi. A: Yeah. You know what? And thank you so much, Sam, for sharing that. 'cause I think it opens up this conversation with masculinity and toxic masculinity.

Ngozi. A: And even as you were speaking, your story reminded me of David.

Speaker 3: Mm.

Ngozi. A: And so I'll share with you my thoughts on David. So, you know, the Bible's so beautiful because it's, it's layered in [00:52:00] three, it's a doctrine, it's promises, it's prophecy, right? And we have been given the opportunity to read about some folk's story like in just the fullness of it.

Ngozi. A: Like David and, you know, Samuel. Like we're privy to that. Then. Now folks were just like privy to like pieces of their story, right? Like maybe, you know, Elijah, we don't know where he came from, but we know we showed up when he pronounced the famine, right? Like these pieces. And so, but with David, we're privy to David's upbringing when he was anointed as a shepherd boy.

Ngozi. A: And so the reason why I said your story reminds me of David. And I often talk about this when I'm like talking with, , like males who deal with masculinity and this like, this overburdensome , idea by society and just upbringing to,, be perfect. Because even when we hear perfection, that means there's something there.

Ngozi. A: 'cause perfection doesn't exist. So the moment someone says, oh, I just need to be perfect. I'm like, mm, there's something that we need to touch. And I bring up David, because we see David, he was anointed as [00:53:00] a shepherd, right? We see him, um, he's in the back as a little boy, right? Forgotten by his father.

Ngozi. A: And then that's when Samuel is asking Jesse like, wait a minute. Don't you have other boys? Like, is this, is this only it? And they said, oh, there's David, who's he's sending to the sheep. Sammy says, go bring him. Remember that's when the Lord had anointed him. So we see that and then we see David's story continues, where now Israel has gone to war against the Philistines.

Ngozi. A: Goliath comes out, they've been there coming out with their victory champ. But nobody wants to face Goliath because he's a beast. And David, he's just going to give his brothers bread 'cause his father told him to and he overhears them saying, who is this uncircumcised Philistine talking and disrespecting the Lord of hosts like this?

Ngozi. A: So he's talking. Then his brother, who Samuel thought was the king because he looked like a king, right? Says. Don't you have little sheep to tend to like, he basically like, essentially insults [00:54:00] him.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And

Ngozi. A: David, he could have turned his head to him, but he was like, I'm not even gonna deal with you. I'm gonna go ahead, I'm gonna continue trying to inquire.

Ngozi. A: And it's then we know, of course David takes down Goliath. Right? Then we hear he's installs like essentially, , becomes one of Saul's, , bears like armor bears. Mm-hmm. Then he, the Lord starts to train him up in the ways of a warrior. Right. And so then they create a song. Saul has killed thousand, David has killed 10,000.

Ngozi. A: So you see this little boy who has had to achieve so much, but he has been forgotten by his father.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Ngozi. A: Disrespected by his brother. So of course he feels like he has to achieve everything. Of course, he feels like he has to do the most. Of course. He feels like he has to be perfect. And I think for David, the breaking point came.

Ngozi. A: When he, of course we know the story with David, where he committed the sin by, sleeping with Uriah's wife, right. And then sending Uriah to the front line to be killed. Right? And then the prophet Nathan [00:55:00] says to him, this is what's gonna happen to your household. And the reason why I say shame is sitting there is because when you go and you read about David's daughter, Tamar, you read that she is raped by her half brother, and David finds out about it.

Ngozi. A: Yet David doesn't say anything about it. And I remember reading that and wondering, was it the shame that overwhelmed David from his own sinful past because he had been this high achiever for so long. Had to achieve so much and my father forgot about me. You know, my brother insulted me. Saul chased me. I wasn't even established as king until like almost seven, 10 plus years later on over all of Israel.

Ngozi. A: And then he commits this quote unquote one grievance against the Lord, and he then hid it as well. So I wonder how much of David felt ashamed to speak out to do anything when his daughter is essentially raped, [00:56:00]

Speaker 4: right?

Ngozi. A: But it was his inability to speak, his inability to allow God to heal whatever area showed up in that place that fractured his family.

Ngozi. A: Because when we read Tamar's story, her story ends with her living as a desolate woman in her brother's house, Absalon, his son runs away, but then comes back after asking for forgiveness. Right and essentially sleeps with his father's concubine. And David is fleeing for his life, but before he even runs away, 'cause this is the part I skipped, he kills his half brother.

Ngozi. A: So you see the breakdown of the family because David didn't say anything. But I have pity for David because I wonder how much shame. Was at play because of the grievance against the Lord. Though we prayed for mercy and the Lord forgive him, how much was still at play for him not to speak up against what [00:57:00] had happened to Tamar.

Ngozi. A: So I say the pieces of your story reminds me of the pieces of these ideas that you have to be perfect and you have to be the best and you have to be enough. And if you're not that, then you're nothing and you're worthless. These very extreme, margins folks live in. And so I just give glory to God for you sharing that story because I do believe that you sharing this will bring someone to the light and show them like there is healing that can happen even though you're feeling all this stuff.

Ngozi. A: Because what happened with David is we see the breakdown of his family. Hmm.

Sam Acho: You say healing happens. , How does healing happen? How does, you know with, you know, you said David's story and I'm like, man, that didn't end very well. How does that not become my story? Or anyone who's listening, like, how does that, how does that ending not become their ending?

Sam Acho: My ending?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. I think the first step is, is, is going into therapy like we've talked about, going and researching a Christian counselor. You know, I remember when I took my first intro class, intro to [00:58:00] counseling class, they asked, are you a Christian counselor or are you a counselor who happens to be Christian?

Ngozi. A: And I was very adamant, oh, I'm a Christian counselor. I'm a Christian first. The Lord called me to this 'cause I worked in tv, so this is his work. Right? Um, so really going to someone you know, who will integrate the word in a framework that is helpful to you. Um. So starting there, acknowledging that we need theory.

Ngozi. A: But even to the second piece to that is healing looks different for everyone. It's not linear. You know, when I'm sitting in the space, I'm not there by myself. I'm there through the power of the Holy Spirit who is also ministering, who is also speaking to their heart. Right? It kind of goes back to the parable of the, of the, soil and the seeds, right?

Ngozi. A: Where it talked about, you know, the seed went out and it fell on concrete. Then it fell on, um, uh, thorns, and then it, what did it fell on good soil. And then I think the other one was like, what? I can't remember the other one. Yeah. [00:59:00] But the different types of soils, and it said, well, the ones that fell on concrete, the enemy came and picked it up, so it wasn't even enough.

Ngozi. A: Then the other one that fell on the other soil. The weeds. The weeds, yes. The weeds where it essentially, it wasn't able to take root. Then the other one was on the throats, is that when the things of life happened, it literally, it, it, it, it took away the word. And then the other one that fell on soul, it produced 30, 60, a hundred.

Ngozi. A: So that is through the power of the Holy Spirit working in a person's heart as well. What soil are we dealing with? Identifying that when the person even comes in the space? Kind of going back to my client that I had who said, I don't believe in the Lord. No. Okay, cool. Bad. I'll guarantee you her, her soil was the concrete.

Ngozi. A: So we ain't even talk about the word 'cause it wasn't even prepared for the seed to take root. That didn't even come up. But as the Holy Spirit is working, 'cause like I said, no one can sit in the presence of light and not be impacted, especially when you've sat in darkness for so long. Right? Questions start happening and the Lord, through the power of the Holy Spirit starts to massage.

Ngozi. A: So [01:00:00] healing isn't linear, it looks different for every person, but working in conduit with the Holy Spirit who was now leading and guiding these sessions. You're able to bring a person to what healing looks like for them with the Lord. And only they know the answer to that,

Sam Acho: not you. That's good. That's good.

Sam Acho: Last question that I think that I have. , When I was sitting with my friend, he said, Hey man, maybe you should go talk to somebody. Earlier in this conversation you were talking about some of the signs, , that people may have when they're dealing with, different issues. I dunno if it was like to depress it, depression type of issues or suicidal type issues.

Sam Acho: How. Do we speak to someone when we see those signs, what do we do? How do we, what is the, what should the response be?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. So it's interesting. Let, let's go with the thought of suicide. Let's go with that, right? Because there are [01:01:00] many folks who have suicide ideation but don't attempt, right? There, and some of them are passive, some of 'em are more active, like, man.

Ngozi. A: I don't just wake up tomorrow is what It's Right. Very passive thoughts. And then there are some that are active. So, it's a theory and I thought, I think I talked about it just a little bit on the last podcast, but I'll kind of flesh it out a little bit more. There's a theory called Interpersonal Theory of Suicide and it basically, it's not a way to treat suicide, but it is the way to help folks like clinicians understand why folks attempt.

Ngozi. A: So what that looks like. And so what it says is two internal traits need to be there, internal being the first one. Not feeling like they connect to people, not feeling like they belong. This typically happens when there is a loss of some sort, maybe a rupture in the family, a rupture in the community.

Ngozi. A: Maybe I've lost, you know, like an audience. Maybe I've been top of my game and then all of a sudden, you know, I've got a massive injury or [01:02:00] you know, I've been cut. From the team. What does that mean about my identity? So not feeling like I belong anywhere. The other piece that needs to be there is this perceived notion of burdensome and perceived notion of burdensome basically means that I am the source of harm to other people as seeing yourself as harmful to the family.

Ngozi. A: I'm a financial drain on them. All my problems are too much. I'm causing my family pain. I'm causing my community pain. I haven't lived up to the name. These two internal pieces need to be there in order for there to be suicide ideation, right? And so the other piece to that is where we move into our more high risk folks who have, attempted is the other piece that needs to be there.

Ngozi. A: Is acquired, capability, , of suicide, which basically means, the body has been taught to override its survival mechanisms. So essentially the lizard part of our brain is the one that, you know, like is the one that goes in the fight flight. [01:03:00] Freeze fraud, right? So for example, if you were to hear a gunshot, you were to hear a big boom, you are probably there folks, the survival mechanism, it kicks in and you're either running, right, you're looking for cover, you're doing whatever it is.

Ngozi. A: That's the part that's a sign to keep you alive. This is why whenever I'm, counseling folks who have been, , victims of assault, and they say, well, I just felt my body go limp, your body deemed that it was the safest thing to do to make sure that you survived another day. So you had no control over that because the prefrontal cortex shuts off.

Ngozi. A: And that's where our decision making process is. So lizard brain is active, right? And so what happens, , is with this acquired, , capability of suicide is you are essentially being exposed to violence, being exposed to trauma, having, , chronic illness, and it can be violence, whether it's experienced or witness , chronic illness, chronic medical issues, right?

Ngozi. A: All these big things, right? Decreases the ability for our survival mentality to happen. So it teaches our [01:04:00] body not to be afraid of harmful things. Right. So you had these two perceived things perceived burdensome. I don't have any connection to anyone, then my tolerance to pain has been lowered.

Ngozi. A: Right? Then that's where we look at, okay, this person is high risk for suicidality. And so like I said, this theory allows us to be able to understand so that as clinicians, right, as people, we know how to intervene. Because if we're seeing that someone feels that they're not connecting, that they don't belong, then what I do as maybe a layman, right?

Ngozi. A: I'm not working in the field of counseling. Then I make sure to invite them to places. I, I'm, doing that often. I'm sending the voice notes, Hey, how you doing? Just checking in. If they send you back a I'm good. Take it a step further. Well, what does good mean? 'cause good isn't really an emotion.

Ngozi. A: So what does that mean for you? Should I send you the emoji chart? Man, I'm coming over to visit. Like, it's like, you know, it's like this constant engagement because what we're [01:05:00] doing is we're trying to eliminate this idea that you don't belong, that you don't have connection because it is literally feeling like you don't have connection.

Ngozi. A: Then the other piece of burdensome like that you think you're a burden to family. Remember this thinks it's, it's rooted in, feeling like you are the harm to society, your family, whatever it may be, is I'm causing them pain. I am the source of harm. So what essentially we're doing in this arena with folks like that is we're making sure that they know that they're not right.

Ngozi. A: This is produced in shame. This is produced because of societal messages. It's produced from self-hate. Right. And so we are walking still alongside them, showing them that you are actually the source of joy to many people. And you don't realize it. We're, really expanding, right? 'cause what depression can do, and depression does not mean suicidally, I have to say that it can, it can increase suicidally, but it's not the,, there's no, uh, depression causes suicide.

Ngozi. A: Right? But what happens essentially [01:06:00] is it decreases our ability to see. Vision, have imagination for thought. So this is why I talk about like coming in community. This is why community is so important.

Ngozi. A: The Lord is not upset with you having these very hard, very, these overwhelming emotions. He will find a way out for you and then he'll take you to glory. 'cause that's what he did with Elijah. He had Elijah walk beside him and restore him in a way that we don't really get to see in the Word. Um, but I do believe that's what happened because it said, Elijah was not taken away for maybe about seven to 10 years after that encounter with the Lord at Mount Carmel.

Ngozi. A: And so Elijah walks with him showing him connection, showing him that you are not a burden. All these beautiful things reorienting his mind of what he thought when he went. And he was running away and telling, Lord, take me, take me, take me. So if you're someone who sees these things, it's being intentional, almost relentless in the way in which you engage with people who you see withdraw, who you see, stop speaking.

Ngozi. A: Their [01:07:00] disposition has changed, right? And it doesn't mean that you don't have your own burdens, but this is what it looks like to sacrifice in the kingdom of God too. This is what it looks like to love.

Sam Acho: That's so good. I asked you this last time. I know I said this, that was the last question. So this is gonna, it's gonna be a statement maybe, um, or, okay, I lied.

Sam Acho: Not the last question. Um, how can we hear more of this or more of you? How do we. Where can we hear more of you? I know there's a podcast. There's some new things like, 'cause this has been super, this has been beneficial for me in my heart. My disposition is different now than when I entered into this space, so thank you for that.

Ngozi. A: Amen.

Sam Acho: Amen. How can we hear more? So for people who we, yeah, thank you.

Ngozi. A: Yeah. Yeah. So I have a podcast where we peel back the layers of the word, and we look at it from a clinical perspective. So faith is our framework. And then I introduce, uh, things that we do in our counseling world. Kind of the way in which we've had this conversation [01:08:00] is the same way I'm doing that on the podcast.

Ngozi. A: And the podcast is called Healing Her, where Faith Meets Psychology. , And it is available on Spotify and Apple. And a new episode drops every Tuesday at 7:00 PM central standard time. So if you wanna peel back the word, , and look into the things that the Lord is doing more from a clinical perspective and how you can be healed in these ways, that is where you will get that.

Sam Acho: Yeah. And then I know I asked a very direct pointed question of the podcast, but generally, what do we, what do we need to know? Like what is the Holy Spirit telling you to share at this moment as we end?

Ngozi. A: Yeah. You know. What's coming up for me as we're about to end is that, you know, the end of the year is coming to an end for a lot of people.

Ngozi. A: A lot of people started this year with dreams and hopes and visions that they expected to happen, and now we're knocking at the door of December and it has been the same [01:09:00] pain, the same sorrow, the same brokenness, and they're asking, where is God in the midst of my pain. I thought that this year was gonna be different.

Ngozi. A: I thought that if I moved a little bit different, if I planned, then this would be different. And the Lord is saying that I've been here all along, right? That there are seasons called the seasons of silence. And so the season, there are three types of seasons of silence. The first one is when God is working on the vessel.

Ngozi. A: And so I encourage folks to look at how has God been working on you? See without. Pain and sorrow. There can be no perseverance. There can be no, there can be no rising above. There can be no endurance. Right? James, tell us to count it all joy when we experience trials and tribulations because it's the, this experience that our faith is being made.

Ngozi. A: Like we being, we're being stretched. We are, are growing in our spiritual maturity. And so that season of silence that's happening for you is literally the [01:10:00] Lord is doing something on the vessel. He did it with Joseph, where Joseph had all those dreams. And then next thing you know, we don't hear nothing about dreams anymore in the life of Joseph, he is atheist house.

Ngozi. A: Then he goes to the pit, then he's in the palace and we also see it in the life of Jesus, right? He's in the temple one day at 12 years old and he's reading and his mother's like, where, where have you been? She, he said, didn't you know I was gonna be in my father's house? Curtains closed. We don't hear from Jesus.

Ngozi. A: Until it's time for him to be baptized by John the Baptist. God is working on the vessel to be able to build capacity so that you can walk in and step into the things that ha God has for you. The other season of silence is timing. God is moving destiny helpers in place and, and you can't see it and you may not know it, but he's, he's being strategic because God works behind the scenes.

Ngozi. A: We see this in the Book of Luke, chapter one with Elizabeth who was. Barren. And the Bible tells us that she was a righteous woman. Her husband was a righteous woman, yet she could not have kids, right? And she even admits to having [01:11:00] shame and reproach until the Lord right now blesses her womb and says, you are gonna have a son.

Ngozi. A: He's going to essentially lead the way for the coming Messiah. But the thing to know about this is Elizabeth couldn't have a child in her younger years because Mary wasn't ready. So destiny helpers have to be put in place, right? So understanding that, and sometimes that third season of silence is that God is reprogramming things so that you don't meet destruction, but you meet your blessing,

Speaker 4: right?

Ngozi. A: And I think that's the biggest piece for a lot of folks is that they rush and rush and rush ahead of the Lord. And the Lord was saying, wait a minute, I'm not in that. All right? And so I think in this moment, folks sitting. Learning what season of silence am I in and then turning back to the Lord so that he can continue to do the work on you, in you and through you.

Ngozi. A: So that when he ascends you, right, when he anoints you, when he does what he does right, you'll be the vessel that is able to carry his [01:12:00] word, and his power.

Sam Acho: Hmm. Amen. Amen. I need to, I'm alright. I'm gonna subscribe to the podcast if my, our coach already listened to it. I haven't listened to it yet, but I mean, I feel like I got it.

Sam Acho: , Now, so the podcast last, last time you told us, , ways to find you as far as Christian counseling. Please tell us again one more time. Yeah, yeah. What's the best way to do that?

Ngozi. A: Yeah, so if you're looking for, so I'm only licensed in two states, y'all, so lemme say that. Texas and California. , But I do offer coaching, so that's another piece that's not the clinical component, but that is the coaching component.

Ngozi. A: And so that can be, you can be anywhere to do that. , But you can find me at www healing her, , institute.com. And that's where you can schedule a consultation or learn more about the practice, and all the things. And then you can also find me on Instagram, which is simply amngozi, that's spelled N-G-O-Z-I.

Ngozi. A: , And on Instagram, yeah.

Sam Acho: Awesome. Well, and Ngozi, thank you so much for joining and everybody, thank y'all for listening to another episode of the Sam Acho [01:13:00] podcast, A place where we go first, we give space, and we grow Hope we'll talk to you soon.

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